Position of boiler flue in relation to velux window, advice pleas

[Murdoch]

OP ........... please take the time to view this:

Party walls and building work

It may not hold the answers you want but given the description of the works you have given there should have been an agreement in place ..... and this would have been at your neighbours cost - not yours.

 

[Debra Beagle]

Call GAS SAFE

Have called gas safe on 3 occasions and also have had our gas fitter raise the concern with them and they have told us each time ‘it is not in our remit’............I wonder if the circumstances were different, and the boiler had been fitted after the window, they would make the effort to come out?....just a thought. Again thank you for all comments it has been very interesting on everyone’s thoughts. If we find a solution I will post to let you know.

 

[Riley]

I just do not see how it’s not in their remit. Perhaps ask them to explain why as it is fundamentally a gas safety issue. Welcome to the world of a gas engineer

 

[kasser]

After reading all the posts here, the solution seems quite straightforward.
First, the flue and boiler were installed according to regs.
Window pops up too close to flue. You have Gas Safe saying ‘whichever was there first has the right to be there’.
So it's clear the window has to go and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the boiler and flue. What the builder says is irrelevant, he's not qualified in this respect.
If the neighbour doesn't want to take action, that's not your problem - you already went to a lot of trouble to highlight the issue, their issue to them. They're the ones who'd be sleeping in a room potentially full of CO. I'm amazed they're not concerned at all.

All you need to do now as someone mentioned here is cover your back. Have documentary evidence that you contacted the relevant authorities and the neighbours and that your boiler was fitted before the window, after that the ball is no longer in your court. If the Rubbish hits the fan, you have done absolutely nothing wrong and have the evidence to show that you drew attention to this issue to multiple parties and were ignored.

 

[Jerry]

6 pages of solid advice and hardly any snarky comments.

What is the world coming too?

 

[CHRISX]

Hello again Debra,

Please excuse me for not asking this question before I wrote my previous message to You:

I know that I wrote a `reassuring message` above addressed to Member scott_d and yourself - but having looked again at the photo that you attached on your original message can You please tell us what area of your property is below the Boiler Flue at ground level ?

Have You got a section of `garden area` there - if so how far does it extend away from the wall to the property boundary ?

After viewing the photo again today I am wondering whether your neighbours property is directly below the Flue at ground level because otherwise it would seem that their house extends to the wall of your home ?

Are the white structures that we see at the bottom of the photo part of a Conservatory on the neighbours property ?

IF the wall of your house is on the `Boundary` then it would mean that your Boiler Flue should NOT be discharging out of that wall because it would be discharging over the neighbours property - irrespective of the height of the Flue or whether there is a neighbouring wall or window adjacent / opposite it.

And that would put a totally different Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal rights perspective on the matter of the Flue and the Velux window.

If your Boiler Flue is discharging over the neighbours property line the installation would be incorrect and the neighbour would have a Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal right to state that it should be moved even without the problem with the Velux window / possible Flue gasses being blown into the window.

As I wrote above I apologise for not asking about this before I posted my previous message.

Chris

 

[Debra Beagle]

Hello again Debra,

Please excuse me for not asking this question before I wrote my previous message to You:

I know that I wrote a `reassuring message` above addressed to Member scott_d and yourself - but having looked again at the photo that you attached on your original message can You please tell us what area of your property is below the Boiler Flue at ground level ?

Have You got a section of `garden area` there - if so how far does it extend away from the wall to the property boundary ?

After viewing the photo again today I am wondering whether your neighbours property is directly below the Flue at ground level because otherwise it would seem that their house extends to the wall of your home ?

Are the white structures that we see at the bottom of the photo part of a Conservatory on the neighbours property ?

IF the wall of your house is on the `Boundary` then it would mean that your Boiler Flue should NOT be discharging out of that wall because it would be discharging over the neighbours property - irrespective of the height of the Flue or whether there is a neighbouring wall or window adjacent / opposite it.

And that would put a totally different Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal rights perspective on the matter of the Flue and the Velux window.

If your Boiler Flue is discharging over the neighbours property line the installation would be incorrect and the neighbour would have a Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal right to state that it should be moved even without the problem with the Velux window / possible Flue gasses being blown into the window.

As I wrote above I apologise for not asking about this before I posted my previous message.

Chris

Chris that is our property below.The flue, (as stated previously post 21 and 22) ,extends over our land and, according to regulations is fitted the correct distance away from the boundary line. The flue runs parallel to the boundary line and measures over 300 mm away from it.
I have checked and rechecked measurements, instructions, and diagrams to reassure myself that we are not breaching any regulations.

 

[CHRISX]

Chris that is our property below.The flue, (as stated previously post 21 and 22) ,extends over our land and, according to regulations is fitted the correct distance away from the boundary line. The flue runs parallel to the boundary line and measures over 300 mm away from it.
I have checked and rechecked measurements, instructions, and diagrams to reassure myself that we are not breaching any regulations.

Hello again Debra,

I was asking the questions to try and visualise the situation regarding where the Boundary between your property / land and your neighbours property / land is.

I am trying to understand the photo regarding the fact that it seems the neighbours Velux window is fitted into a roof section that would seem to have to be above your garden / land ?

Any possibility of seeing a ground level photo of the area under the Boiler Flue position ?

You probably already know that in Law a property boundary extends upwards to infinity regarding anything encroaching across it at any height.

I hope that You stating: `(as stated previously post 21 and 22)` is not any kind of a rebuke regarding that because you wrote that the Boiler Flue does not discharge over the Boundary I should not be questioning you about the layout of your garden / boundary.

You state that you have checked and rechecked the measurements, instructions etc. - can you please let us know what Boiler you have ?

Just so we can see the Manufacturers specifying that their Condensing Boiler`s Flue Terminal can be located only 300mm from a property boundary - although You describe it as `parallel to the boundary` it is still a ridiculously small measurement for a Boiler Flue that exudes a `Plume` of slightly acidic water vapour with the Flue Gasses.

I ask this because the `norm` minimum distance to opposite a property boundary for a Fanned Flue Boiler Flue Terminal is 600mm and in MY opinion that is nowhere near far enough for practical / safety / no nuisance purposes regarding the `Plume` from a Condensing Boiler Flue not being discharged over a neighbouring property.

To try and ensure that one avoids causing a nuisance with Condensing Boilers Flue Plumes it is recommended that the opposite a boundary distance is increased to 2 metres - although not in every location adhering to that measurement is much less likely to cause the Flue Gasses Plume to be blown over a neighbouring boundary.

When the Plume from a Condensing Boiler Flue can be blown by the wind either over a boundary or onto a Building / Car etc. the `slightly acidic` nature of the water vapour element can cause staining of Brickwork and other surfaces / degradation of paintwork / other surfaces / damage to Vehicle paintwork / staining or damage to washing items hanging on lines and of course people do not want the Plume blowing over / onto their property`s.

Plus obviously the `Products of Combustion` must NOT ever be able to be blown into a Door, Window or any other opening into a Building.

You are corresponding with Experts on the Gas Safety Regulations on this thread - Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineers / Gas Installers - who are within a group of the ONLY `Registered / Legally Competent Persons` allowed to work on Gas in the UK - so when questions about the layout of your property / your property boundary - which Gas Boiler you have etc. are asked the answers to those questions are completely relevant for Us to formulate correct responses to your original enquiry.

You `reminding me` that you stated the Boiler Flue is not discharging over the neighbours property in `posts 21 ansd 22` should not mean that you should then not answer my questions about the photo / the exact situation re. the property boundary.

I asked the questions hoping that the answers would mean that I did NOT have to change my advice contained in my previous message to You but I wanted to understand the exact situation about the neighbours property boundary so that I could verify that what I wrote was correct.

Chris

 

[Murdoch]

^^ agree 110%

some more pictures would be very useful

 

[Debra Beagle]

 

[Riley]

It’s such a difficult one as parallel or opposite you’d say it could be too close in terms of nuisance plume going over the boundary. Admittedly it’s at high-level so the whole nuisance debate would be deemed a very grey area. It will be down to that horrible Gas Safe scenario where they won’t make a call and it’s down to the gas engineer on site Some will deem it too close to the Boundry others went

 

[CHRISX]

View attachment 38433 View attachment 38434

Hello Debra,

Thanks for posting the additional photos although I would still have liked to see the area directly below the Boiler Flue at ground level - your garden / paved area or other ?

I hope that You will not be irritated by these further questions:

When you mentioned `the extension` in a previous message did you mean a Loft Conversion ?

I am asking that because I am fairly sure that a Neighbour could not have an extension built that was connected to your home re. the Brickwork and Roof.

Who owns the Conservatory that I think I can see the Roof of in a photo - it seems from the photo to be very close to your Home`s wall ?

I am asking because I still cannot visualise how your property stands regarding the boundary with your neighbours ?

Is it possible to go out onto your garden / property and stand on your land directly underneath the Boiler Flue ?

As I mentioned above - please don`t be offended or irritated by these questions - I am not just `being nosey` - the answers would enable me to visualise the situation regarding the layout of the properties / boundary.

Chris

 

[Debra Beagle]

 

[Debra Beagle]

I don’t think you’re nosey at all Chris, here is another photo the property with the conservatory is ours and the building protruding outwards behind the tree branch is the neighbours extension. Sorry, I know it can be confusing.

 

[Murdoch]

Debra ......... you haven't commented about my suggestions about a Party Wall Agreement .......... so I'm assuming you didn't have one, yet you should have ...................

 

[CHRISX]

It’s such a difficult one as parallel or opposite you’d say it could be too close in terms of nuisance plume going over the boundary. Admittedly it’s at high-level so the whole nuisance debate would be deemed a very grey area. It will be down to that horrible Gas Safe scenario where they won’t make a call and it’s down to the gas engineer on site Some will deem it too close to the Boundry others went

Hello Riley,

When I was describing the possible `nuisance factor` of the Plumes from Condensing Boilers in that message to Member Debra I was not particularly alluding to Her Boiler Flue.

I was just trying to explain that even with Manufacturers Instructions / their specified `Minimum Clearances` measurements a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume can often still NOT adhere to the Gas Safety / Building Regulations if it will then be blowing over a neighbours property boundary.

It would not be appropriate for any of Us to install a Condensing Boiler just because the `minimum clearance` measurement had been adhered to but knowing that there was then going to be a `nuisance` caused by the Flue Plume going over the property boundary.

Any property owner has the Legal right to object to / legally challenge a situation where a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume blows over their boundary and have the `nuisance plume` removed / diverted away from their boundary / property.

As I mentioned in a previous message the recommendation is to keep a Condensing Boiler Flue Terminal at least 2 metres away from opposite a property boundary / property wall sited on a boundary because of the nuisance possibly caused by the slightly acidic water vapour `Plume` - although not in all cases [ site survey first] that measurement should prevent a `Plume nuisance` from occurring.

In a situation where the property boundary is a Brick wall or other structure which is adjacent the Boiler Flue 300mm to `adjacent a boundary` is absolutely ridiculous as any wind at all will blow the Flue Plume over the boundary / onto the Building where a wall is on the boundary.

Staining / `Damage` can be caused to Buildings , Vehicles etc. in situations such as that as I described in a previous message to Member Debra.

My recent `further questions` were to try and ascertain whether there was a problem with Member Debra`s Boiler Flue discharging over a boundary because if it is then that alone would make the installation incorrect - without the possible problem regarding the Velux window.

Taking a hypothetical scenario regarding the Gas Safety Regulations / Building Regulations and Property Law - if a Boiler Flue is discharging over a property boundary but is 30 metres above ground level - irrespective of how high up from the ground or how far removed from other structures it is that is not allowed if following the Regulations / Property Law.

As You probably know in Law a property boundary goes up all the way to `Space` however it would probably not be challenged unless a Building was erected adjacent to the boundary making it obvious that the Flue / Plume was not adhering to the Regulations / associated Property Law.

Chris

 

[Riley]

Hello Riley,

When I was describing the possible `nuisance factor` of the Plumes from Condensing Boilers in that message to Member Debra I was not particularly alluding to Her Boiler Flue.

I was just trying to explain that even with Manufacturers Instructions / their specified `Minimum Clearances` measurements a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume can often still NOT adhere to the Gas Safety / Building Regulations if it will then be blowing over a neighbours property boundary.

It would not be appropriate for any of Us to install a Condensing Boiler just because the `minimum clearance` measurement had been adhered to but knowing that there was then going to be a `nuisance` caused by the Flue Plume going over the property boundary.

Any property owner has the Legal right to object to / legally challenge a situation where a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume blows over their boundary and have the `nuisance plume` removed / diverted away from their boundary / property.

As I mentioned in a previous message the recommendation is to keep a Condensing Boiler Flue Terminal at least 2 metres away from opposite a property boundary / property wall sited on a boundary because of the nuisance possibly caused by the slightly acidic water vapour `Plume` - although not in all cases [ site survey first] that measurement should prevent a `Plume nuisance` from occurring.

In a situation where the property boundary is a Brick wall or other structure which is adjacent the Boiler Flue 300mm to `adjacent a boundary` is absolutely ridiculous as any wind at all will blow the Flue Plume over the boundary / onto the Building where a wall is on the boundary.

Staining / `Damage` can be caused to Buildings , Vehicles etc. in situations such as that as I described in a previous message to Member Debra.

My recent `further questions` were to try and ascertain whether there was a problem with Member Debra`s Boiler Flue discharging over a boundary because if it is then that alone would make the installation incorrect - without the possible problem regarding the Velux window.

Taking a hypothetical scenario regarding the Gas Safety Regulations / Building Regulations and Property Law - if a Boiler Flue is discharging over a property boundary but is 30 metres above ground level - irrespective of how high up from the ground or how far removed from other structures it is that is not allowed if following the Regulations / Property Law.

As You probably know in Law a property boundary goes up all the way to `Space` however it would probably not be challenged unless a Building was erected adjacent to the boundary making it obvious that the Flue / Plume was not adhering to the Regulations / associated Property Law.

Chris

I think we agree mate I was just exacerbating the grey area of nuisance plume

 

[Debra Beagle]

Debra ... you haven't commented about my suggestions about a Party Wall Agreement . so I'm assuming you didn't have one, yet you should have ....

I replied in post 40. There wasn’t a party wall agreement. Sorry for my ignorance but what difference would this have made? Please don’t take offence at this question. I am asking out of curiosity.

 

[Rob Foster]

View attachment 38433 View attachment 38434

The vent bricks adjacent to the boiler fan flue look a bit worrying.centralheatking

 

[Riley]

Looks more than 300mm

 

[Murdoch]

I replied in post 40. There wasn’t a party wall agreement. Sorry for my ignorance but what difference would this have made? Please don’t take offence at this question. I am asking out of curiosity.

in your case I would have hoped that your surveyor might have picked up the issue from the plans and highlighted it accordingly. Your neighbour would have had to foot the bill for the surveyors...

 

[CHRISX]

I don’t think you’re nosey at all Chris, here is another photo the property with the conservatory is ours and the building protruding outwards behind the tree branch is the neighbours extension. Sorry, I know it can be confusing.

Thank You for your reply and the additional photo Debra,

All is now clear regarding the orientation of your property and the neighbours extension.

As I am sure that You are aware the reason why there are `minimum clearances` to a Property Boundary is in case someone erects a Building / Structure close to the boundary - as has been done with your Neighbour`s extension.

In theory adhering to the minimum distance to the boundary when there is no Building / Structure present ensures that a property owner is protected in the event that the neighbour does build something adjacent to the boundary.

In your case because of the design / dimensions of the Neighbour`s extension immediately adjacent to your Boiler Flue there is a slight possibility that Flue gasses / Flue Plume could be blown enter the Extension Roof space / Loft Room via the open Velux window.

There is also the possibility that the slightly acidic water vapour from the Flue Plume could stain the extension Brickwork / guttering facia board or Roof tiles.

The possible staining of parts of the extension is something that would not really have been taken into consideration because any structure immediately adjacent to a Condensing Boiler Flue could get stained by the Plume - but it may cause a complaint in future if it can be seen by your Neighbour ?

The Architect / Designer / Builder of your Neighbour`s extension have not taken into consideration the proximity / existence of your Home`s Boiler Flue when designing the extension regarding the Velux window location.

My advice would be to try again to get a visit from one of your Local Authority Building Control Officers - if you cannot get them involved write to Gas Safe asking for an Inspector to visit your property - if they decline stating that the situation is `not within their remit` contact the HSE and report the fact that neither the LABC or Gas Safe will inspect the situation.

Tell them you have had conflicting opinions from a few Gas Safe registered Gas Engineers / Gas Installers and you cannot afford to keep paying Engineers who you find will not commit their findings in writing which is why you wanted to involve a Gas Safe Inspector.

However now that it seems you simply cannot get a definitive answer in writing you are worried about the Gas Safety aspect of the possibility that under certain wind conditions `Products of Combustion` would be able to enter the Loft Room Velux window.

Unfortunately I am guessing that the HSE would probably refer you back to engaging a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer / Gas Installer - but it is worth a couple of phone calls / a few Emails.

The problem with that is that an Engineer`s visit obviously costs money and even if you had the imaginary facility to have 3 or 4 Engineers visit free of charge they might NOT all agree a definitive answer.

Even with very experienced / very knowledgeable Engineers `human nature` / `self preservation` dictates that some might prefer to state that the proximity of the Flue terminal to the Velux window is definitely a Safety issue to cover themselves in case of a future problem.

Sorry that I / We cannot be more helpful.

If You do get a written definitive answer please let Us know with an update on here.

Chris

 

[CHRISX]

Looks more than 300mm

Hello again Riley,

Now that I have seen the last photo I am guessing that the 300mm measurement is from the edge of the Boiler Flue terminal to the middle of the Party wall between the Houses ?

The extension would have to be built so that the guttering did not encroach past the middle of the Party wall or it would have been over Member Debra`s boundary line.

Chris

 

[Riley]

SORRY mate that one was in response to robs message about the air bricks above which would need 300mm. I should have quoted him

 

[CHRISX]

SORRY mate that one was in response to robs message about the air bricks above which would need 300mm. I should have quoted him

Hello again Riley,

No need to apologise - my mistake.

I did not see Member Rob Foster`s message.

I was just about to apologise to You when I saw your message.

Chris