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- Thread starter southcoastboile
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- Replies 114
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Discuss Sacked today in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at Plumbers Forums
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Do you have a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? you are entitled to have one. If they did not follow it to the letter and it does not comply to uk law then its unfair dismissal, they should also have a complaints/grevience proceedure you can use to appeal?
Every direct employee is entitled to a contract of employement and on requesting a copy they should supply you one. The contract should state dates, wages, hours, etc.... as standard.
Im guessing that if you were to take it further you will have some success, depends on if its worth it. If you are a member of a union then they will help you out.
Every direct employee is entitled to a contract of employement and on requesting a copy they should supply you one. The contract should state dates, wages, hours, etc.... as standard.
Im guessing that if you were to take it further you will have some success, depends on if its worth it. If you are a member of a union then they will help you out.
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Thanks again everyone, loads of helpfull posts there, I have applied to the job offer on gumtree, thanks BLOD.
Ok well this is the letter I have replied with..............
I am writing to you regarding my recent dismissal.
I wish to appeal agianst the dismissal, based on the grounds that you have not followed the correct disciplinary procedure. I also believe that I have been unfairly dismissed.
I have not had a written, or verbal warning, nor was I given any documentation to support this.
When raising this issue with you I was told "I don't have to give you a written warning or a verbal warning as I am sacking you on the spot, due to gross misconduct".
The reasons you have given me verbaly from a list you had written up were as follows:
You stated that I had left a loft ladder down in a job I attended and the woman
(who lives a short distance from yourself and who is a friend of yours) then phoned up to say she had lifted her child over the stairgate and left him on the stairs, while she dealt with her other child who was crying. While she was attending to the crying child the 2 year old child apparently had climbed up the ladder and into the loft and she found him crawling around in there. Also, she had apparently hurt her finger when putting the loft ladder back up. You then said she had been "bending your ear" about what happened and subsequently you had to fit her a new boiler for free.
I appreciate I should not have left the ladder down. It was a genuine mistake, for which I have apologised.
However, I find it extremely hard to believe that a two year old had climbed up a ladder and in to a trap hatch that even I found difficult to get into. This also raises the question as to how to the child managed to do this unsupervised.
As for the lady cutting her finger, it is the customers responsibility to make sure her property is in good order and could be construed as her putting me in danger.
I also recieved a letter regarding this issue and was told that it was not a diciplinary letter.
The second reason you gave me, was that I didn't attend a callout.
I had a telephone call from a Nursing Home saying one of their commercial boilers had stopped working and they had no heating.
I explained to the customer that I was sorry but I would be unable to attend as I am not qualified to work on commercial boilers and I am only qualified to work on domestic boilers.
You then pulled me into the meeting room for a chat the next day and told me I must attend all callouts regardless of the situation. When I challenged this decision you told me to just attend anyway for the sole purpose of showing face. I agreed that I would then attend all callouts but may not be able to carry out the work.
Another reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I attended a job to a service and didn't tell the office that there was a leak on the radiator tail.
I went to service a boiler and while checking all the radiators were working I found a leak on a tail to a radiator behind a cabinet. I telephoned the office and said I would be able to fix it but would need three hours and could you cancel some of my jobs as it was urgent. I was told that the jobs could not be cancelled and I would have to leave it.
I advised the customer it would be best to drain the system as it was a bad leak but the customer was an elderly person who needed heating and did not want this to happen. I then telephoned the office and said it was urgent as it was leaking and he will not let me drain the system. I asked if it could be booked in for me the following day to which I was told, "yes you can go in between jobs to do it". I asked what jobs I had on the next day and was given a list of jobs that would be difficult to complete within the working day as it was, let alone with this three hour job on top. I said "something needs to be done about it and I willl not have time. We need to get a sub contractor to do it if I can't, as it's urgent".
I was told to leave the job and the office would discuss it with the customer's Insurance company. I fail to see how I could have handeled the situation any better than I did.
The next reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I had gone to a callout and left the mains isolated and 2 hot draw offs as there was a leak.
I cleared this with the customer and they said it was fine to leave it off untill our return visit. I instructed the Office the next day that we would need to go back and finish the job and that I had stopped a major leak in the meantime.
You then gave me another reason, which meant we had to do a recall on a job in Swanage. You stated that I had apparently turned a boiler off, as it was dangerous, when it was in fact safe.
I was called to a job where the boiler was going to lockout on fault code F1, which means there is a fault with the gas pressure or water pressure. The water pressure was correct, so I checked the gas pressure. The pressure coming into the property was fine but the pressure to the boiler was not. I concluded this was why it was going to lockout and making loud noises on full rate. I concluded the installation was unsafe and isolated it. You apparently got called back and it was found to be ok. I did not come to the same conclusion. It is possible that when testing, I had not screwed out the test nipple far enough, therefore getting a false reading but it made sense that the pipework was undersized due to the symptons the boiler was experiencing.
If I was wrong, it was a genuine mistake and I would rather be safe than sorry. I wasn't given the opportunity to attend the recall, so therefore, I don't know either way.
The final reason you gave me, was that I fitted a boiler and you had to go back that night to have a look and that I had left the gas off.
The reason I had left the gas off, was that I found a gas escape on the existing pipework, so found the installation to be unsafe. I issued a Warning Notice and left the gas turned off. You then went back and turned installation back on.
I questioned you on this, as you had brought it up as a reason to dismiss me. You said it was fine and that you had checked it. I believe this is not true.
To conclude this letter, I have given reasons as to why and how these situations have come about and feel I have worked to the best of my ability while working for PBS. I have been there for eight years under four different bosses and have never had a problem.
I understand the Company is suffering financially and feel I am being pushed out to avoid paying redundancys. I understand that other Engineers have also recently had warnings and have never received them before.
These were the only items mentioned at the meeting with Bernie also present. I was told that Mike would like to see me the day before I saw him and when I phoned Mike and asked what it was about, he declined to comment. I went in at my usual time and was sacked straight away.
I look forward to your reply regarding this matter.
Yours sincerely
Ok well this is the letter I have replied with..............
I am writing to you regarding my recent dismissal.
I wish to appeal agianst the dismissal, based on the grounds that you have not followed the correct disciplinary procedure. I also believe that I have been unfairly dismissed.
I have not had a written, or verbal warning, nor was I given any documentation to support this.
When raising this issue with you I was told "I don't have to give you a written warning or a verbal warning as I am sacking you on the spot, due to gross misconduct".
The reasons you have given me verbaly from a list you had written up were as follows:
You stated that I had left a loft ladder down in a job I attended and the woman
(who lives a short distance from yourself and who is a friend of yours) then phoned up to say she had lifted her child over the stairgate and left him on the stairs, while she dealt with her other child who was crying. While she was attending to the crying child the 2 year old child apparently had climbed up the ladder and into the loft and she found him crawling around in there. Also, she had apparently hurt her finger when putting the loft ladder back up. You then said she had been "bending your ear" about what happened and subsequently you had to fit her a new boiler for free.
I appreciate I should not have left the ladder down. It was a genuine mistake, for which I have apologised.
However, I find it extremely hard to believe that a two year old had climbed up a ladder and in to a trap hatch that even I found difficult to get into. This also raises the question as to how to the child managed to do this unsupervised.
As for the lady cutting her finger, it is the customers responsibility to make sure her property is in good order and could be construed as her putting me in danger.
I also recieved a letter regarding this issue and was told that it was not a diciplinary letter.
The second reason you gave me, was that I didn't attend a callout.
I had a telephone call from a Nursing Home saying one of their commercial boilers had stopped working and they had no heating.
I explained to the customer that I was sorry but I would be unable to attend as I am not qualified to work on commercial boilers and I am only qualified to work on domestic boilers.
You then pulled me into the meeting room for a chat the next day and told me I must attend all callouts regardless of the situation. When I challenged this decision you told me to just attend anyway for the sole purpose of showing face. I agreed that I would then attend all callouts but may not be able to carry out the work.
Another reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I attended a job to a service and didn't tell the office that there was a leak on the radiator tail.
I went to service a boiler and while checking all the radiators were working I found a leak on a tail to a radiator behind a cabinet. I telephoned the office and said I would be able to fix it but would need three hours and could you cancel some of my jobs as it was urgent. I was told that the jobs could not be cancelled and I would have to leave it.
I advised the customer it would be best to drain the system as it was a bad leak but the customer was an elderly person who needed heating and did not want this to happen. I then telephoned the office and said it was urgent as it was leaking and he will not let me drain the system. I asked if it could be booked in for me the following day to which I was told, "yes you can go in between jobs to do it". I asked what jobs I had on the next day and was given a list of jobs that would be difficult to complete within the working day as it was, let alone with this three hour job on top. I said "something needs to be done about it and I willl not have time. We need to get a sub contractor to do it if I can't, as it's urgent".
I was told to leave the job and the office would discuss it with the customer's Insurance company. I fail to see how I could have handeled the situation any better than I did.
The next reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I had gone to a callout and left the mains isolated and 2 hot draw offs as there was a leak.
I cleared this with the customer and they said it was fine to leave it off untill our return visit. I instructed the Office the next day that we would need to go back and finish the job and that I had stopped a major leak in the meantime.
You then gave me another reason, which meant we had to do a recall on a job in Swanage. You stated that I had apparently turned a boiler off, as it was dangerous, when it was in fact safe.
I was called to a job where the boiler was going to lockout on fault code F1, which means there is a fault with the gas pressure or water pressure. The water pressure was correct, so I checked the gas pressure. The pressure coming into the property was fine but the pressure to the boiler was not. I concluded this was why it was going to lockout and making loud noises on full rate. I concluded the installation was unsafe and isolated it. You apparently got called back and it was found to be ok. I did not come to the same conclusion. It is possible that when testing, I had not screwed out the test nipple far enough, therefore getting a false reading but it made sense that the pipework was undersized due to the symptons the boiler was experiencing.
If I was wrong, it was a genuine mistake and I would rather be safe than sorry. I wasn't given the opportunity to attend the recall, so therefore, I don't know either way.
The final reason you gave me, was that I fitted a boiler and you had to go back that night to have a look and that I had left the gas off.
The reason I had left the gas off, was that I found a gas escape on the existing pipework, so found the installation to be unsafe. I issued a Warning Notice and left the gas turned off. You then went back and turned installation back on.
I questioned you on this, as you had brought it up as a reason to dismiss me. You said it was fine and that you had checked it. I believe this is not true.
To conclude this letter, I have given reasons as to why and how these situations have come about and feel I have worked to the best of my ability while working for PBS. I have been there for eight years under four different bosses and have never had a problem.
I understand the Company is suffering financially and feel I am being pushed out to avoid paying redundancys. I understand that other Engineers have also recently had warnings and have never received them before.
These were the only items mentioned at the meeting with Bernie also present. I was told that Mike would like to see me the day before I saw him and when I phoned Mike and asked what it was about, he declined to comment. I went in at my usual time and was sacked straight away.
I look forward to your reply regarding this matter.
Yours sincerely
- Messages
- 1,279
Above is the letter, only problem is I have 5 days to hand this to them, they are not obligated to send me the reasons they sacked me through the post in a certian time limit, so I can hand this in to them, they can read it and make up new reasons as its only verbal, I had no whitnesses. Thats my worry anyway.
I used to be a shop steward for many years mate and after reading all the replies and your letter, my input would be wasted because others have already given you great advice. I believe as a company they should be more worried than you are at the moment, it's a terrible feeling being sacked, I've seen a few lads sacked some for nothing, but because the company followed procedure they got away with it.
I did a course once with a guy called Dennis Smith of The Industrial Society, he was a former Ford Halewood works convenor who sat on many industrial tribunals and his advice was always 1.procedure 2.Procedure 3.Procedure. If they have one and don't stick to it, like others have said they will lose anyway. Best of luck finding work !!
I did a course once with a guy called Dennis Smith of The Industrial Society, he was a former Ford Halewood works convenor who sat on many industrial tribunals and his advice was always 1.procedure 2.Procedure 3.Procedure. If they have one and don't stick to it, like others have said they will lose anyway. Best of luck finding work !!
K
kay-jay
Don't send that letter. The content above is for discussion with your solicitor. Or most c.a.b have a tribunal rep. To employer simply inform them that you are pursuing a legal claim for unfair dismissal. Due to them not following legal procedures. Do not show them your hand!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, if you are serious about pursuing the case, discuss with a solicitor before sending anything out.
If you decide its not worth the effort then its up to you.
From the sounds of it (gut feeling not any professional opinion), you maybe are better off out of those circumstances and they might actually have done you a favour.
If you decide its not worth the effort then its up to you.
From the sounds of it (gut feeling not any professional opinion), you maybe are better off out of those circumstances and they might actually have done you a favour.
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E
ecowarm
Also this is an open forum, best discussed in the arms IMO
That letter should be "Private and confidencial" if it got out you have discussed it in an open forum if it ended in court it would not help your case IMO
That letter should be "Private and confidencial" if it got out you have discussed it in an open forum if it ended in court it would not help your case IMO
G
Guest123
Sorry to hear this about you.
Gather as much evidence as you can supporting your actions in the complaints he's made against you and if possible get a few witnesses that will back you up and take him and the company to a tribunal for either unfair or constructive dismissal. Go see a lawyer about this as soon as possible, the first meeting is free.
Gather as much evidence as you can supporting your actions in the complaints he's made against you and if possible get a few witnesses that will back you up and take him and the company to a tribunal for either unfair or constructive dismissal. Go see a lawyer about this as soon as possible, the first meeting is free.
J
jase158
Sorry to hear your news mate,
I haven't read all the posts as quite long, so sorry if i repeat anything,
But have you taken a step back and saw it from there point of view?
Firstly, the first instance with the ladder is a complaint from a customer, the boss can not ignore it, even if he doesnt agree with it.
Secondly, If everyone turned around and said they weren't going to do jobs, then he wouldn't get any jobs done.
Thirdly the call backs he can not ignore these as he has a company to run, if they get a bad reputation then the company will go completely bust.
However these are not my thoughts, I nearly always leave the ladder up, especially if I had to put it up and move the towels out of the airing cupboard.
It sounds to me like he is a very grumpy bloke who takes life too seriously. But personal feelings have to be disregarded.
At the end of the day it is a case of his word against yours, the customers are very unlikely to get involved. If he can prove that he has given you plenty of warnings, plenty of chances to sort things out, then you haven't got a chance. get yourself a good lawyer and he will have to answer a lot of questions, but to be honest, if they are shutting in April, won't they just close the company and go bust and open a new one under a new name and you wont have a leg to stand on then.
Basically is it really worth it?
I haven't read all the posts as quite long, so sorry if i repeat anything,
But have you taken a step back and saw it from there point of view?
Firstly, the first instance with the ladder is a complaint from a customer, the boss can not ignore it, even if he doesnt agree with it.
Secondly, If everyone turned around and said they weren't going to do jobs, then he wouldn't get any jobs done.
Thirdly the call backs he can not ignore these as he has a company to run, if they get a bad reputation then the company will go completely bust.
However these are not my thoughts, I nearly always leave the ladder up, especially if I had to put it up and move the towels out of the airing cupboard.
It sounds to me like he is a very grumpy bloke who takes life too seriously. But personal feelings have to be disregarded.
At the end of the day it is a case of his word against yours, the customers are very unlikely to get involved. If he can prove that he has given you plenty of warnings, plenty of chances to sort things out, then you haven't got a chance. get yourself a good lawyer and he will have to answer a lot of questions, but to be honest, if they are shutting in April, won't they just close the company and go bust and open a new one under a new name and you wont have a leg to stand on then.
Basically is it really worth it?
- Messages
- 1,279
Thanks KJ, I think mabee you are right and I shouldn't show my hand, mabee I should just keep it short and say the basics, i.e I am disputing the descision due to it being unfair and the reasons for my dismissal are unjust, then when it goes to the next stage state my reasons as to why I feel it is unjust as I have done in the letter.
When I spoke to acas they told me to say I feel its wrong and write reasons to state why I have been unfairly dismissed like I have in the above letter. I realy need expert advice but the timescale I have to get this letter off is within 3 days so I dont realy have that option atm.
When I spoke to acas they told me to say I feel its wrong and write reasons to state why I have been unfairly dismissed like I have in the above letter. I realy need expert advice but the timescale I have to get this letter off is within 3 days so I dont realy have that option atm.
I only read the first two pages. Sounds like your ex boss is a total **************************** (you can fill in the blanks).
I've got to add one thing though. A mate of mine (also a plumber) was fitting an unvented cylinder at home the other week. He went downstairs for a cuppa, and when he came back he found his kid (2 and a bit years old) in the loft!!
So she could possibly be telling the truth. Though its down to her to watch he kids while there is work being done in the house. You're the plumber not the nanny.
I've got to add one thing though. A mate of mine (also a plumber) was fitting an unvented cylinder at home the other week. He went downstairs for a cuppa, and when he came back he found his kid (2 and a bit years old) in the loft!!
So she could possibly be telling the truth. Though its down to her to watch he kids while there is work being done in the house. You're the plumber not the nanny.
E
ecowarm
Send a letter saying you are apealling and a breif outline, requesting a meeting and you have the right to a witness a the meeting
D
dontknowitall
Sorry to hear of the news (I've been following this thread so far and read some of your letter).
I agree with those recent comments - don't send the letter as it is. You need to keep your ammunition close to your chest as it makes things more difficult for the other party to argue without too much time to think of other "stories" to strengthen their case. Best to get your solicitor/adviser to help you with what you should or should not send - in my opinion.
Ecowarm's post is extremely valid. Ask a Moderator to assist/edit your post if you can.
I hope you have matters cleared up soon.
I agree with those recent comments - don't send the letter as it is. You need to keep your ammunition close to your chest as it makes things more difficult for the other party to argue without too much time to think of other "stories" to strengthen their case. Best to get your solicitor/adviser to help you with what you should or should not send - in my opinion.
Ecowarm's post is extremely valid. Ask a Moderator to assist/edit your post if you can.
I hope you have matters cleared up soon.
- Messages
- 1,279
Sorry to hear your news mate,
I haven't read all the posts as quite long, so sorry if i repeat anything,
But have you taken a step back and saw it from there point of view?
Firstly, the first instance with the ladder is a complaint from a customer, the boss can not ignore it, even if he doesnt agree with it.
Secondly, If everyone turned around and said they weren't going to do jobs, then he wouldn't get any jobs done.
Thirdly the call backs he can not ignore these as he has a company to run, if they get a bad reputation then the company will go completely bust.
However these are not my thoughts, I nearly always leave the ladder up, especially if I had to put it up and move the towels out of the airing cupboard.
It sounds to me like he is a very grumpy bloke who takes life too seriously. But personal feelings have to be disregarded.
At the end of the day it is a case of his word against yours, the customers are very unlikely to get involved. If he can prove that he has given you plenty of warnings, plenty of chances to sort things out, then you haven't got a chance. get yourself a good lawyer and he will have to answer a lot of questions, but to be honest, if they are shutting in April, won't they just close the company and go bust and open a new one under a new name and you wont have a leg to stand on then.
Basically is it really worth it?
seriously? this must be easy to say from an outsiders point of view. I have worked my bum off for this company, made money week in week out, get on with the customers, some even ask specialy for me. Been there 8 years so you would think I have done something right in all that time. This is blaitantly unfair, anyway I am going to fight the decision as best I can. Think as I am the youngest they may see me as the easyest target. Little do they know!
P
PlumbBobBob
would you like this thread moved into the arms or gs only forum? pm me if you do
T
tamz
Keep your letter short and to the point. You should just be informing them you are appealing the decision.
It would be best if you can get a witness to accompany you but if the witness is an employee they may (for obvious reasons) be reluctant to do it and if they do they may not back you up if it came to the crunch. Most people won't put their job on the line to protect anyone so an independent witness may be best.
Your appeal probably won't alter their decision unless they realise they have fkd up on their handling of it.
Btw the appeal should be heard by persons of higher authority so you may get to meet the directors.
In the meantime move on and deal with it as it comes.
It would be best if you can get a witness to accompany you but if the witness is an employee they may (for obvious reasons) be reluctant to do it and if they do they may not back you up if it came to the crunch. Most people won't put their job on the line to protect anyone so an independent witness may be best.
Your appeal probably won't alter their decision unless they realise they have fkd up on their handling of it.
Btw the appeal should be heard by persons of higher authority so you may get to meet the directors.
In the meantime move on and deal with it as it comes.
- Messages
- 1,279
Keep your letter short and to the point. You should just be informing them you are appealing the decision.
It would be best if you can get a witness to accompany you but if the witness is an employee they may (for obvious reasons) be reluctant to do it and if they do they may not back you up if it came to the crunch. Most people won't put their job on the line to protect anyone so an independent witness may be best.
Your appeal probably won't alter their decision unless they realise they have fkd up on their handling of it.
Btw the appeal should be heard by persons of higher authority so you may get to meet the directors.
In the meantime move on and deal with it as it comes.
I dont think i'm allowed an independant whitness at the meeting, only an employee or if I was a member of a union I could have a union rep with me. The guy I work with has said he will come to the meeting with me and take notes. He thinks the boss is out of order as well. Although its obvious he will not want to risk his job. Seems unfair that you have to have an employee at the meeting. I think it's a good idea to keep it short and informative for now like you say and then bring the issues up at the meeting.
M
Mike Jackson
It can only be a colleague or a trade union rep at the meeting unfortunately.
E
ecowarm
You may take a familly member with you, have a look here Handling disciplinary actions : Directgov - Employment good info
K
kay-jay
just to reiterate, don't under any circumstances either in a letter or at your interview - detail what grounds you are seeking unfair dismissal on. just tell them you are pursuing the claim by legal means. let them do the worrying, or if they think they have acted correctly and its just sour grapes they won't do anything, whereas if you detail all the aspects of your claim they can prepare a defense.
speak to a tribunal rep at c.a.b or ring a solicitor. be aware however that you are on a time limit to formally submit an application/notification for unfair dismissal to acas and the court (4 weeks from termination i think, but check this) don't panic - your case doesn't need to be ready at this time just the submission of the request.
speak to a tribunal rep at c.a.b or ring a solicitor. be aware however that you are on a time limit to formally submit an application/notification for unfair dismissal to acas and the court (4 weeks from termination i think, but check this) don't panic - your case doesn't need to be ready at this time just the submission of the request.
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- 1,279
just to reiterate, don't under any circumstances either in a letter or at your interview - detail what grounds you are seeking unfair dismissal on. just tell them you are pursuing the claim by legal means. let them do the worrying, or if they think they have acted correctly and its just sour grapes they won't do anything, whereas if you detail all the aspects of your claim they can prepare a defense.
speak to a tribunal rep at c.a.b or ring a solicitor. be aware however that you are on a time limit to formally submit an application/notification for unfair dismissal to acas and the court (4 weeks from termination i think, but check this) don't panic - your case doesn't need to be ready at this time just the submission of the request.
Thanks kayjay, I have been up since 6 because I was thinking about it and couldn't sleep, I've literaly just prepared my case and I was going to mention all the things that I disagree with at the meeting but from what you said it's best not to do that. If thats the case (fully understand your point) what can I actuly say at the meeting? if he askes me about issues do I then defend myself or how do I handle it? I am going to phone CAB today and book an appointment.
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- 1,279
You may take a familly member with you, have a look here Handling disciplinary actions : Directgov - Employment good info
Thanks, I have been reading from that website all morning, found some usefull things on there
E
ecowarm
Hopefully the CAB will have someone available, the meeting can be adjurned untill you have some one to represent you
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