should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Depends how deep your pockets are these days!

 

[shorticus]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

@Tamz, so if someone wanted to fast-track and had the cash how quickly could they qualify?

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Haven't a clue. A lot quicker than it took me. Paper qualified and couldn't plumb in a washing machine after 4, 6, 8 weeks?

Personally i think it is a disgrace.

 

[shorticus]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

as I said I'm old school, C&G+advanced craft, took three years and even then I was still called 'the boy' ah such fond memories lol.
I've no idea what the nvq is all about, are there no indentured apprenticeships now?

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yes, for the selected few

Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

If Its right or wrong, NVQ is all there is. We can complain that when I did my apprenticeship, I had 3 years craft in plumbing then did 1 Year Advanced in Plumbing and sanitation, then did another year in Gas Oil and solid fuel services. 5 years total. That was the days when investment was available. We covered so much which is not used much today. We covered Lead roofing, Iron barrel work (including the bending) Cast drainage and lots more. In modern Plumbing not many even know what a Pudlock, mole skin or caulking iron is. Why should they? Its a just not used so much. When I first started Plastic did'nt exsist in supply services. Time moves on and lets be proud of what was done in the past, but don't critise the new training and NVQ schemes. A word of caution, Fast track schemes in my view are very bad for our industry.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

haha anyone who does a 6 week course or whatever you guys do to fast track are wasting there time. what is wrong with england and these pointless nvq system you got going on.
you cant even do a plumbing course in Scotland without a apprenticeship this is how it should be or at least fast track should take a minimum of 2 years and I would still say its too short to actually learn enough to call yourself a plumber I have been doing plumbing for about 13 -14 years and still dont know it all.
yes you may be good enough to use flexi hoses and plastic push fit on all your jobs but this cant even be described as what real plumbers do except on jobs that A/ THEY ARE NOT EARNING ENOUGH ON IT B/ THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY SNOWED UNDER AND NEED TO DO THE JOB QUICK.

what would actually happen to a guy who done a 6 week / 6 month or even year long plumbing course that comes up against some technical plumbing problem? tell the customer you will be back tomorrow after you chat with your mates on the plumbing forum lol.

this is for anyone who is considering fast tracking yes you can earn good money at plumbing but you will have to be good, fast and highly knowledgeable about all the different systems and problems that can arise and this you cant learn in a year. these are the things you pick up watching your tradesman and going to college over the 4 years and then the 2 to 3 years after your apprenticship is over then my friends you can call yourself a plumber

 

[smudger]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The NVQ 2 can't be a measure of competence because it only requires proof of very basic plumbing skills. There's no mandatory requirement to prove competence on heating systems, installation of cylinders, installation of storage tanks etc.
If you install a couple of bathrooms, change a couple of soil stacks and do some basic plumbing maintenance you have all the evidence needed to complete the portfolio.

The NVQ 3 is mostly concerned with the planning of works and customer service with two small tasks involving commissioning a heating and hot water system.

There's a huge gap in what's required to become qualified and what's required to do the job.


EDIT: sorry smudger, just read your post which says everything I was trying to say.

Yeah, but you said it much better. I agree with you totally, but I have a problem in that I really want to learn how to do the job properly, but can't find anyone to take me on (I'm mid- 40's), I'm a skilled tiler & general builder but most people would rather take on a (much cheaper) youngster (as would I) or think that I would leave in a year. Therefore, I'm forced to learn as I go. This is not really a problem as I will always try to do the job correctly and I seek advice/help if unsure (or won't take job on). So I'm not sure what the answer is really. I've only been working for a very short time and I've already seen some rubbish.

I would like to see more investment for proper vocational courses (rather than gcse's etc) at schools, so you can choose to do academic or learn a trade at 14, but this would cost money and the gov't would rather just make exams easier and pat themselves on the back for doing such a great job.

 

[smudger]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yes, for the selected few

Most however see it as a road to riches and career satisfaction and jump in the deep end knowing less than a first year apprentice

People are wrongly advised that they can go out and make a fortune after a short course, which is rubbish. The NVQ was (is) okay if it is used as part of an "on-the-job" training program over a couple of years. The problem is that other private providers have been allowed to hijack the system and sell the courses which are not fit for purpose (and not what they were intended or designed for).

For my part (I did one of the courses) I know I can't make a fortune from a being a jobbing plumber, too slow and not enough knowledge, and I probably never will have. The difference is that I (and many others) will sacrifice that fortune and do a good job. Yes that may mean I have to go and chat to more experienced people (sometimes on here), but the important thing is that the job is done properly. The problem is with people who just want to make the money and don't really care if the job is done correctly, just do it the quickest way possible, take the money and run. That has nothing to do skill or competance, that is about character, honesty and self-respect. There is no qualification for that.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

People are wrongly advised that they can go out and make a fortune after a short course, which is rubbish. The NVQ was (is) okay if it is used as part of an "on-the-job" training program over a couple of years. The problem is that other private providers have been allowed to hijack the system and sell the courses which are not fit for purpose (and not what they were intended or designed for).

For my part (I did one of the courses) I know I can't make a fortune from a being a jobbing plumber, too slow and not enough knowledge, and I probably never will have. The difference is that I (and many others) will sacrifice that fortune and do a good job. Yes that may mean I have to go and chat to more experienced people (sometimes on here), but the important thing is that the job is done properly. The problem is with people who just want to make the money and don't really care if the job is done correctly, just do it the quickest way possible, take the money and run. That has nothing to do skill or competance, that is about character, honesty and self-respect. There is no qualification for that.

well said

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

fair play to you

 

[Avatar]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I agree with smudger!

The real crime with these fast track course providers, is that they tell you after the 6129 you are a fully qualified plumber and can go out installing bathrooms and the like. They dont mention anything about getting experience or apprentiseships . . .

This and the fact that they are still advertising that there is a shortage of plumbers even now - i saw another ad in the paper the other day!

Someone should sue their bum for false advertising man!

 

[bedspoolplayer]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

its true u do have to be qualified to do gas but some people doing gas are just short course people never done any plumbing let alone gas work they tick all the right boxes answer the questions right then let loose on gas now thats crazy i know a couple gas safe guys seen them work straight in never do tightness test first they just become causal

 

[spanner]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Yep and I must say as a student, that its best to be safe then sorry, you do find a lot of plumbers who don't have a qual but when it come to doing a practical stint are pretty good, and you can always learn a thing or 2.. But the thing that's in the back of the mind is to get the qualification finished, and if you're a looker you'll catch on the practical in theory the real way of how to do the job and the MAIN thing is the "properties" that particular job involves and so on...

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Spanner I like your location, Better news for the team today, no ofence to villa boys. Pleased your enjoying the training, the most important thing to being a good plumber is remebering the theory and applying it with the experience. Unfortunately some do what they think they can get away with and it give the industry a bad name.

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

This is an interesting discussion and here is my view from the outside

'Proper' regulation like GasSafe will probably be a step too far.

That said I don't see why plumbers should not all have to reach a certain level of competency - regardless of what training method they initally took.

Those that have paper qualifications get immediate certification, and those that dont have formal qualifications could have access to a test to confirm their skills

-----------

Perhaps one method that I haven't seen mentioned...

Plenty of industries require the worker to have a set of qualifications before they can call thenmselves something.

Why not create a new title like 'accredited plumber' for people who have proved their competence. it then becomes illegal to use that title unless you have been accredited - much like it would be illegal to call yourself a solicitor or whatever

this could then be administered by some trade body that do little mroe than check competency and list it on a website

----

GasSafe isn't perfect but people do have SOME aareness of it, which is better than nothing

Someone has mentioned that the authoirities couldnt deal with every case of a rogue tradesman, but i spose the idea is that a new title would soon become accepted as the standard for any plumber and anyone going around faking it is open to prosecution.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

it used to be simple, qualifications were proof of competence, but when they altered the quals to a tec cert only without need for any expereince we now have qualified people who have never ever worked as plumbers. if they hadnt designed a short cut we wouldnt have this problem

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i think part of the problem is anyone can go around calling themselves a plumber, it makes it hard to distinguish who knows what. there is no link between qualifications and title, whereas if you go to a chartered accountant you know that in order to become chartered they have done *soemthing*

sure there will be dodgy people everywhere but this is just 1 extra safeguard.

i doubt the average joe considers what qualifications their plumber has (assuming they can do the job properly) but perhaps they would care a bit more if they knew there was a standard to achieve and that most good plumbers would have bothered to achieve that standard.

 

[metaldust9]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

quals dont make a blind bit of diffremce theres still bad work out there ,i done tiling with no experience except tiling dvd ,s and working with someone who,d done it and it didnt mean i was anygood cos showing someone and doing it yourself is totally diffrent but i can prove the work av done so am ok, well said smudger am like you

the one that gets me is,doing the gas with no plumbing knowelage, how can ye do it,ie having to change y plans to combi,s etc i no people whove only done the gas

 

[Bartdude]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Interesting thread.

The Scottish approach has merits I think,and there's no doubt it's too easy to get 'qualifications'. I also think the early post about having to have a recognised qualification before being allowed to start up in business is good.

I certainly think it's true that the general standard of work was better when an apprenticeship was the only way into the trade.I started my apprenticeship in 1988 and qualified 6 years later(2 years improvers). The first 2 years at college were block release,4 weeks at a time,it stands to reason that this type of training will produce better standards(in all trades)Of course there were bad plumbers then also,but over the course of 4 years they would get found out and dropped by the wayside. It's far easier to stay the course and get qualified if it only takes 12 weeks!

There are still apprenticeships around but from what I see they are much scarcer these days,I do think that generally the cream rises to the top and if someone is dedicated and good at the job they will do well and end up in the job they want.
Smudger raises some very good points and I like the idea of investing more in vocational subjects at school, that should be explored further.

Ultimately customers need to be more discerning in who they employ and that will always be difficult when price is the overriding factor and quality comes a poor second.I can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to show my Gas Safe or Oftec card!

I'm sure many in the trade would say we have enough regulation already and skilled as we are,the job isn't really comparable to,say, a pilot or a doctor,for whom the selection and policing has to be far more stringent. I do agree that we need to tighten up the standards within the industry however,and fast track courses are doing nothing to help achieve that.

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Years ago, when The Institute of Plumbing was the leading recognised body for the industry, we had to demonstrate that we were suitably qualified to join. This really meant something. Although you were not legally required to be IOP, at least the customer could have better assurance that the plumber they were employing new what the were doing. This all seem to be water'ed down over the year's (excuse the thrase) as registration bodies are competing for business and seem to allow almost anyone to register.

 

[cr0ft]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

My 2 pence. If you run your own business then your business thrives or dies on the quality of your work. Cowboy plumbers are (generally) come in a lot cheaper than fully qualified, registered plumbers who run their businesses properly. Therefore, cowboy plumbers only exist because of unrealistic customers who believe they can get more for less.

The solution? Realistic customers I would say!

Being a qualified plumber myself, I really don't believe most plumbing qualifications are worth their salt. I am relatively inexperienced as plumbers go but I have picked up on gas leaks caused by Gas Safe fitters...

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

cowboy plubmers are not always cheap.

its difficult for the average customer to know what a job is worth

I am sure there are big variances in rates amongst 'genuine' plumbers.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i agree with what is being said about bodys such as ciphe accepting anyone just to boost there membership and cash for there owners.
i think there should only be one plumbing body for england just like snipef in scotland who only accept timeserved with svq3 ... i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?
no wonder all these rougue tradesman shows are always in places like england with some of the practises that go on there.
fair play there are some older guys from years ago who never went to college and are as good as any plumber but these days the law should be changed to only allow any sort of trade qualification would have to have worked for so many years before they can get certificate or call there self a plumber, joiner, brick layer or tiler.

wasnt the cscs / jib card meant to help with this? building sites require them but do the average customer even know that to get one of these that says plumber or advanced plumber etc you would have to have proved your competence with certificates maybe awareness should about this should be more widespread.

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?

NVQ2 is roughly the equivilent to a C&G craft cert and a NVQ3 to Advanced Craft.
When i served my time probably around 80% only did the Craft (3 years) as going back for the 4th year was down to the employer.

Now it is (in Scotland) a standard to do an SVQ3 which is still only 3 years so where has the extra year's study gone? No more 3D trigonometry and Reynolds numbers?
How many can remember how to use /do that?